LifterElite
New member
I've been gathering information for a long time to explore the issues surrounding 19-nor compounds (like Deca and Tren) and their effects on prolactin. Recently, I’ve moved beyond my previous "it all comes down to estrogen" approach and now entertain the idea that "testosterone is the root of all evil" – at least when it comes to cycles involving 19-nor compounds or test-only cycles. Currently, I’m working on a research project that involves a bit of personal risk (and low reward), and I’m creating a group for it. Two others have shown interest, so if anyone else wants to join, let me know, and I’ll add you once the group is set up.
Here’s a summary of what I’ve learned so far, based mostly on forum discussions, blogs, and other community insights. This is not formal research but more of an overview of the trends, debates, and arguments that have shaped my curiosity about these compounds and the ongoing controversies surrounding them.
What we know so far:
Testosterone is commonly recommended as the foundation for most cycles, starting as a first cycle, and continuing as the base for all future cycles . Standard advice during cycles includes using an AI, HCG, and prolactin support, alongside other health and organ-related supplementation. We also know that 19-nor compounds, like Deca and Tren, are frequently used in intermediate to advanced cycles, as they are associated with increased strength, lean body mass (LBM), improved protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, nutrient partitioning, and elevated IGF-1 levels .
However, there are known risks: Testosterone, Tren, and Deca all have a range of side effects, such as estrogenic effects (aromatization), prolactin increase, gyno, prostate problems, water retention, cardiovascular issues (increased blood pressure, lipids, and red blood cell count), and more . Additionally, 19-nors are often linked to increases in progesterone, which can lead to similar side effects like prostate issues, water retention (moon face), estrogen conversion, high blood pressure, anxiety, and "roid rage" . Importantly, it’s widely believed that 19-nor compounds severely suppress natural testosterone production, making the addition of exogenous testosterone essential .
What’s the real issue?
Because 19-nors are highly suppressive of natural testosterone, it’s often stated that stacking Deca with testosterone is necessary to counter this suppression . Some believe that 19-nors can convert to estrogen, which would require aromatase inhibitors (AI) for control. However, there’s a debate here: some say Tren doesn’t convert to estrogen, while others claim it does at a lower rate than testosterone . There’s also a faction advocating for 19-nor-only cycles, despite the risks.
Nearly all forum discussions recommend using testosterone as a base, citing the need for AI support due to the estrogen-related side effects in Deca cycles. Common advice includes using drugs like Arimidex or Aromasin to control water retention and prevent estrogenic effects . Similarly, many cycle discussions mention that 19-nors can increase prolactin levels, which could lead to issues like erectile dysfunction (ED) or lactation .
On the other hand, there’s some controversy over whether 19-nors actually increase prolactin. Some argue that progesterone doesn’t raise prolactin levels, and therefore 19-nor compounds may not either. Another fact we know is that testosterone converts to estrogen, which disrupts the testosterone-to-estrogen balance, leading to estrogenic side effects like increased prolactin, which is essential for libido and muscle growth .
So, what’s true?
With so much conflicting information, it’s hard to know what to believe. Do we stick to the common consensus that "testosterone is essential," that 19-nors cause Deca dick and increase prolactin, and that we should always have caber (or other prolactin inhibitors) on hand, plus an AI for estrogen control? Is the severe suppression of natural testosterone and the need for testosterone in a 19-nor cycle really a fact, or have we been following an outdated or oversimplified mindset?
From my own experiences, I’ve learned to question the standard advice. Over the years, I’ve experimented with varying doses of testosterone alongside 19-nors, and found that in some cases, high testosterone with low Tren or Deca yielded fewer side effects. I’ve also had cycles with low testosterone and moderate-to-high Tren or Deca, which produced more manageable results in terms of side effects. This led me to question the dominant narrative that testosterone is always necessary. In my experience, controlling estrogen seems to be far more critical than the presence of testosterone itself in preventing prolactin issues.
I’ve personally experienced and observed less prolactin-related issues when focusing on managing estrogen, rather than using caber and excessive AI. This leads me to believe that 19-nors may not be as significant a contributor to prolactin issues as we’ve been led to believe. Instead, testosterone’s aromatization to estrogen and its subsequent effect on prolactin may be the true culprit.
Research Questions Moving Forward:
1. Do 19-nor compounds increase prolactin in vivo?
2. Are 19-nors more suppressive of natural testosterone than testosterone itself?
3. Does testosterone increase prolactin levels?
4. Is testosterone absolutely essential for a 19-nor cycle?
Research Focus:
To answer these questions, I will explore the following areas:
1. The roles of testosterone, estrogen, prolactin, and aromatase in the body.
2. How relevant receptors function in these processes.
3. Available clinical studies, research, and data on these compounds.
4. What current clinical treatments indicate.
5. Contrarian views on these compounds.
6. Insights from thought leaders in the field.
Based on my initial research, I plan to experiment with a 19-nor-only cycle to measure its effects on prolactin, testosterone, estrogen, and side effects. This will help determine if testosterone is indeed the root cause of the problems seen in 19-nor cycles, or if there are other factors at play. Although 19-nor-only cycles are not new, and many have already experimented with them, there’s still a lack of conclusive evidence about their effects.
I recognize the risks involved, but I firmly believe that there’s a bigger picture that we’re missing. If you’ve had similar experiences or insights, feel free to share your experience.
Here’s a summary of what I’ve learned so far, based mostly on forum discussions, blogs, and other community insights. This is not formal research but more of an overview of the trends, debates, and arguments that have shaped my curiosity about these compounds and the ongoing controversies surrounding them.
What we know so far:
Testosterone is commonly recommended as the foundation for most cycles, starting as a first cycle, and continuing as the base for all future cycles . Standard advice during cycles includes using an AI, HCG, and prolactin support, alongside other health and organ-related supplementation. We also know that 19-nor compounds, like Deca and Tren, are frequently used in intermediate to advanced cycles, as they are associated with increased strength, lean body mass (LBM), improved protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, nutrient partitioning, and elevated IGF-1 levels .
However, there are known risks: Testosterone, Tren, and Deca all have a range of side effects, such as estrogenic effects (aromatization), prolactin increase, gyno, prostate problems, water retention, cardiovascular issues (increased blood pressure, lipids, and red blood cell count), and more . Additionally, 19-nors are often linked to increases in progesterone, which can lead to similar side effects like prostate issues, water retention (moon face), estrogen conversion, high blood pressure, anxiety, and "roid rage" . Importantly, it’s widely believed that 19-nor compounds severely suppress natural testosterone production, making the addition of exogenous testosterone essential .
What’s the real issue?
Because 19-nors are highly suppressive of natural testosterone, it’s often stated that stacking Deca with testosterone is necessary to counter this suppression . Some believe that 19-nors can convert to estrogen, which would require aromatase inhibitors (AI) for control. However, there’s a debate here: some say Tren doesn’t convert to estrogen, while others claim it does at a lower rate than testosterone . There’s also a faction advocating for 19-nor-only cycles, despite the risks.
Nearly all forum discussions recommend using testosterone as a base, citing the need for AI support due to the estrogen-related side effects in Deca cycles. Common advice includes using drugs like Arimidex or Aromasin to control water retention and prevent estrogenic effects . Similarly, many cycle discussions mention that 19-nors can increase prolactin levels, which could lead to issues like erectile dysfunction (ED) or lactation .
On the other hand, there’s some controversy over whether 19-nors actually increase prolactin. Some argue that progesterone doesn’t raise prolactin levels, and therefore 19-nor compounds may not either. Another fact we know is that testosterone converts to estrogen, which disrupts the testosterone-to-estrogen balance, leading to estrogenic side effects like increased prolactin, which is essential for libido and muscle growth .
So, what’s true?
With so much conflicting information, it’s hard to know what to believe. Do we stick to the common consensus that "testosterone is essential," that 19-nors cause Deca dick and increase prolactin, and that we should always have caber (or other prolactin inhibitors) on hand, plus an AI for estrogen control? Is the severe suppression of natural testosterone and the need for testosterone in a 19-nor cycle really a fact, or have we been following an outdated or oversimplified mindset?
From my own experiences, I’ve learned to question the standard advice. Over the years, I’ve experimented with varying doses of testosterone alongside 19-nors, and found that in some cases, high testosterone with low Tren or Deca yielded fewer side effects. I’ve also had cycles with low testosterone and moderate-to-high Tren or Deca, which produced more manageable results in terms of side effects. This led me to question the dominant narrative that testosterone is always necessary. In my experience, controlling estrogen seems to be far more critical than the presence of testosterone itself in preventing prolactin issues.
I’ve personally experienced and observed less prolactin-related issues when focusing on managing estrogen, rather than using caber and excessive AI. This leads me to believe that 19-nors may not be as significant a contributor to prolactin issues as we’ve been led to believe. Instead, testosterone’s aromatization to estrogen and its subsequent effect on prolactin may be the true culprit.
Research Questions Moving Forward:
1. Do 19-nor compounds increase prolactin in vivo?
2. Are 19-nors more suppressive of natural testosterone than testosterone itself?
3. Does testosterone increase prolactin levels?
4. Is testosterone absolutely essential for a 19-nor cycle?
Research Focus:
To answer these questions, I will explore the following areas:
1. The roles of testosterone, estrogen, prolactin, and aromatase in the body.
2. How relevant receptors function in these processes.
3. Available clinical studies, research, and data on these compounds.
4. What current clinical treatments indicate.
5. Contrarian views on these compounds.
6. Insights from thought leaders in the field.
Based on my initial research, I plan to experiment with a 19-nor-only cycle to measure its effects on prolactin, testosterone, estrogen, and side effects. This will help determine if testosterone is indeed the root cause of the problems seen in 19-nor cycles, or if there are other factors at play. Although 19-nor-only cycles are not new, and many have already experimented with them, there’s still a lack of conclusive evidence about their effects.
I recognize the risks involved, but I firmly believe that there’s a bigger picture that we’re missing. If you’ve had similar experiences or insights, feel free to share your experience.